• Registered: 25.09.2009г.
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Topic: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~djmorin/book.html
Chapter 14: "The equivalence principle has a striking consequence concerning the behavior of clocks in a gravitational field. It implies that higher clocks run faster than lower clocks. If you put a watch on top of a tower, and then stand on the ground, you will see the watch on the tower tick faster than an identical watch on your wrist. When you take the watch down and compare it to the one on your wrist, it will show more time elapsed."

Note that the two watches are placed at different gravitational potentials (the alleged "gravitational time dilation" is a function of the potential difference) but experience essentially the same gravitational field. This means that, in Einsteiniana's wonderland, identical clocks placed in identical physical surroundings run at different rates, that is, there is an effect without cause.

Outside Einsteiniana's wonderland the explanation sounds quite prosaic. In 1911 Divine Albert discovered and even published that the speed of light varies with the gravitational potential, "V", in accordance with the equation c'=c(1+V/c^2) given by Newton's emission theory of light. This equation is equivalent to the equation c'=c+v given again by Newton's emission theory of light and showing how the speed of light varies with the speed of the light source, "v". That is, by applying the equivalence principle, one converts c'=c(1+V/c^2), valid in the presence of a gravitational field, into c'=c+v, valid in the absence of a gravitational field, and vice versa. Needless to say, the validity of the two equations is fatal for Divine Albert's Divine Theory.

Later, in 1915, Divine Albert devised better camouflage but in 1911 the "gavitational time dilation", the effect without cause, was the only protective fraud his panicky mind was able to produce.

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  • Registered: 05.03.2007г.
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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

Аз предлагам следното - така и така Айнщайн не е прав, казваш...Ами състави своя теория - пълна и издържана по въпросите. Публикуваш я и току-виж ти донесла международна слава и богатство.

"Главите на някои видове животни стоят забити и душещи към земята." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ВАЛЕНТИНО

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  • Registered: 25.09.2009г.
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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

Pentcho Valev wrote:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~djmorin/book.html
Chapter 14: "The equivalence principle has a striking consequence concerning the behavior of clocks in a gravitational field. It implies that higher clocks run faster than lower clocks. If you put a watch on top of a tower, and then stand on the ground, you will see the watch on the tower tick faster than an identical watch on your wrist. When you take the watch down and compare it to the one on your wrist, it will show more time elapsed."

Note that the two watches are placed at different gravitational potentials (the alleged "gravitational time dilation" is a function of the potential difference) but experience essentially the same gravitational field. This means that, in Einsteiniana's wonderland, identical clocks placed in identical physical surroundings run at different rates, that is, there is an effect without cause.

Outside Einsteiniana's wonderland the explanation sounds quite prosaic. In 1911 Divine Albert discovered and even published that the speed of light varies with the gravitational potential, "V", in accordance with the equation c'=c(1+V/c^2) given by Newton's emission theory of light. This equation is equivalent to the equation c'=c+v given again by Newton's emission theory of light and showing how the speed of light varies with the speed of the light source, "v". That is, by applying the equivalence principle, one converts c'=c(1+V/c^2), valid in the presence of a gravitational field, into c'=c+v, valid in the absence of a gravitational field, and vice versa. Needless to say, the validity of the two equations is fatal for Divine Albert's Divine Theory.

Later, in 1915, Divine Albert devised better camouflage but in 1911 the "gavitational time dilation", the effect without cause, was the only protective fraud his panicky mind was able to produce.

Exceptionally clever Einsteinians such as John Norton and Banesh Hoffmann have moments of aberration in which they hit Einsteiniana even harder than the worst antirelativists ever do. Below Banesh Hoffmann teaches that gravitational time dilation simply does not exist:

http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Its-Ro … 0486406768
Banesh Hoffmann: "In an accelerated sky laboratory, and therefore also in the corresponding earth laboratory, the frequence of arrival of light pulses is lower than the ticking rate of the upper clocks EVEN THOUGH ALL THE CLOCKS GO AT THE SAME RATE. (...) As a result the experimenter at the ceiling of the sky laboratory will see with his own eyes that the floor clock is going at a slower rate than the ceiling clock - EVEN THOUGH, AS I HAVE STRESSED, BOTH ARE GOING AT THE SAME RATE. (...) THE GRAVITATIONAL RED SHIFT DOES NOT ARISE FROM CHANGES IN THE INTRINSIC RATES OF CLOCKS. It arises from what befalls light signals as they traverse space and time in the presence of gravitation."

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pvalev@yahoo.com

  • Registered: 05.03.2007г.
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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

Пенчо вече мина на монолог...

"Главите на някои видове животни стоят забити и душещи към земята." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ВАЛЕНТИНО

Dalai_tatar's Website

  • Registered: 25.09.2009г.
  • Posts: 151

Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

Dalai_tatar wrote:

Пенчо вече мина на монолог...

Не но на предишните ти идеи:

"Аз предлагам следното - така и така Айнщайн не е прав, казваш...Ами състави своя теория - пълна и издържана по въпросите. Публикуваш я и току-виж ти донесла международна слава и богатство."

не ми се иска да реагирам. Професионалист ли си?

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  • Registered: 25.09.2009г.
  • Posts: 151

Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

Pentcho Valev wrote:
Pentcho Valev wrote:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~djmorin/book.html
Chapter 14: "The equivalence principle has a striking consequence concerning the behavior of clocks in a gravitational field. It implies that higher clocks run faster than lower clocks. If you put a watch on top of a tower, and then stand on the ground, you will see the watch on the tower tick faster than an identical watch on your wrist. When you take the watch down and compare it to the one on your wrist, it will show more time elapsed."

Note that the two watches are placed at different gravitational potentials (the alleged "gravitational time dilation" is a function of the potential difference) but experience essentially the same gravitational field. This means that, in Einsteiniana's wonderland, identical clocks placed in identical physical surroundings run at different rates, that is, there is an effect without cause.

Outside Einsteiniana's wonderland the explanation sounds quite prosaic. In 1911 Divine Albert discovered and even published that the speed of light varies with the gravitational potential, "V", in accordance with the equation c'=c(1+V/c^2) given by Newton's emission theory of light. This equation is equivalent to the equation c'=c+v given again by Newton's emission theory of light and showing how the speed of light varies with the speed of the light source, "v". That is, by applying the equivalence principle, one converts c'=c(1+V/c^2), valid in the presence of a gravitational field, into c'=c+v, valid in the absence of a gravitational field, and vice versa. Needless to say, the validity of the two equations is fatal for Divine Albert's Divine Theory.

Later, in 1915, Divine Albert devised better camouflage but in 1911 the "gavitational time dilation", the effect without cause, was the only protective fraud his panicky mind was able to produce.

Exceptionally clever Einsteinians such as John Norton and Banesh Hoffmann have moments of aberration in which they hit Einsteiniana even harder than the worst antirelativists ever do. Below Banesh Hoffmann teaches that gravitational time dilation simply does not exist:

http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Its-Ro … 0486406768
Banesh Hoffmann: "In an accelerated sky laboratory, and therefore also in the corresponding earth laboratory, the frequence of arrival of light pulses is lower than the ticking rate of the upper clocks EVEN THOUGH ALL THE CLOCKS GO AT THE SAME RATE. (...) As a result the experimenter at the ceiling of the sky laboratory will see with his own eyes that the floor clock is going at a slower rate than the ceiling clock - EVEN THOUGH, AS I HAVE STRESSED, BOTH ARE GOING AT THE SAME RATE. (...) THE GRAVITATIONAL RED SHIFT DOES NOT ARISE FROM CHANGES IN THE INTRINSIC RATES OF CLOCKS. It arises from what befalls light signals as they traverse space and time in the presence of gravitation."

In the era of Postscientism the slogan "Relativity is false" sounds like "The world is bad": both are truisms that nobody finds it reasonable to react to. This allows clever Einsteinians to indulge in the luxury of being honest from time to time. Here is John Norton's version of "There is no gravitational time dilation":

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 … -tick.html
"General relativity knits together space, time and gravity. Confounding all common sense, how time passes in Einstein's universe depends on what you are doing and where you are. Clocks run faster when the pull of gravity is weaker, so if you live up a skyscraper you age ever so slightly faster than you would if you lived on the ground floor, where Earth's gravitational tug is stronger. "General relativity completely changed our understanding of time," says Carlo Rovelli, a theoretical physicist at the University of the Mediterranean in Marseille, France.....It is still not clear who is right, says John Norton, a philosopher based at the University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Norton is hesitant to express it, but his instinct - and the consensus in physics - seems to be that space and time exist on their own. The trouble with this idea, though, is that it doesn't sit well with relativity, which describes space-time as a malleable fabric whose geometry can be changed by the gravity of stars, planets and matter."

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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 … sults.html

In 2005, researchers at the MAGIC gamma-ray telescope on La Palma in the Canary Islands were studying gamma-ray bursts emitted by the black hole in the centre of the Markarian 501 galaxy, half a billion light years away. The burst's high-energy gamma rays arrived at the telescope 4 minutes later than the lower-energy rays.
The mystery has only deepened with the launch last year of NASA's Fermi gamma-ray space telescope. It has observed high-energy photons arriving up to 20 minutes behind zippier low-energy ones from a source 12 billion light years away. The hope is that Fermi will produce much more data that will enable researchers to rule out more mundane explanations and launch us into the era when we can finally put theories that attempt to unite quantum mechanics and gravity to the test.

  • Registered: 25.09.2009г.
  • Posts: 151

Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

frege wrote:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 … sults.html

In 2005, researchers at the MAGIC gamma-ray telescope on La Palma in the Canary Islands were studying gamma-ray bursts emitted by the black hole in the centre of the Markarian 501 galaxy, half a billion light years away. The burst's high-energy gamma rays arrived at the telescope 4 minutes later than the lower-energy rays.
The mystery has only deepened with the launch last year of NASA's Fermi gamma-ray space telescope. It has observed high-energy photons arriving up to 20 minutes behind zippier low-energy ones from a source 12 billion light years away. The hope is that Fermi will produce much more data that will enable researchers to rule out more mundane explanations and launch us into the era when we can finally put theories that attempt to unite quantum mechanics and gravity to the test.

Парадоксално но факт: в ерата на постсциентизма такива опровержения на принципа за постоянството на скоростта на светлината могат само да подпомогнат кариерата на жреците на Айнщайниана:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/smolin0 … print.html
Lee Smolin: "Now, here is the really interesting part: Some of the effects predicted by the theory appear to be in conflict with one of the principles of Einstein's special theory of relativity, the theory that says that the speed of light is a universal constant. It's the same for all photons, and it is independent of the motion of the sender or observer. How is this possible, if that theory is itself based on the principles of relativity? The principle of the constancy of the speed of light is part of special relativity, but we quantized Einstein's general theory of relativity.....But there is another possibility. This is that the principle of relativity is preserved, but Einstein's special theory of relativity requires modification so as to allow photons to have a speed that depends on energy. The most shocking thing I have learned in the last year is that this is a real possibility. A photon can have an energy-dependent speed without violating the principle of relativity! This was understood a few years ago by Amelino Camelia. I got involved in this issue through work I did with Joao Magueijo, a very talented young cosmologist at Imperial College, London. During the two years I spent working there, Joao kept coming to me and bugging me with this problem.....These ideas all seemed crazy to me, and for a long time I didn't get it. I was sure it was wrong! But Joao kept bugging me and slowly I realized that they had a point. We have since written several papers together showing how Einstein's postulates may be modified to give a new version of special relativity in which the speed of light can depend on energy."

Впрочем, жреците на Айнщайниана много отдавна са наясно с Divine Albert's Divine Theory. Ето например техните знания за нещо което е станало през 1907:

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_4.3/smolin.htm Lee Smolin: "Quantum theory was not the only theory that bothered Einstein. Few people have appreciated how dissatisfied he was with his own theories of relativity. Special relativity grew out of Einstein's insight that the laws of electromagnetism cannot depend on relative motion and that the speed of light therefore must be always the same, no matter how the source or the observer moves. Among the consequences of that theory are that energy and mass are equivalent (the now-legendary relationship E = mc2) and that time and distance are relative, not absolute. SPECIAL RELATIVITY WAS THE RESULT OF 10 YEARS OF INTELLECTUAL STRUGGLE, YET EINSTEIN HAD CONVINCED HIMSELF IT WAS WRONG WITHIN TWO YEARS OF PUBLISHING IT."

http://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/papers/On … imesNR.pdf "What Can We Learn about the Ontology of Space and Time from the Theory of Relativity?", John D. Norton: "In general relativity there is no comparable sense of the constancy of the speed of light. The constancy of the speed of light is a consequence of the perfect homogeneity of spacetime presumed in special relativity. There is a special velocity at each event; homogeneity forces it to be the same velocity everywhere. We lose that homogeneity in the transition to general relativity and with it we lose the constancy of the speed of light. Such was Einstein's conclusion at the earliest moments of his preparation for general relativity. ALREADY IN 1907, A MERE TWO YEARS AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE SPECIAL THEORY, HE HAD CONCLUDED THAT THE SPEED OF LIGHT IS VARIABLE IN THE PRESENCE OF A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD."

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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

първи  принцип на нютоновата механика: всяко тяло запазва неопределено дълго състоянието си на равномерно праволинейно движение. наблюдениата ни са крайни, така че строго погледнато той не се проверява; проверяват се крайни апроксимации, а когато се наблюдават отклонения, се измислят обяснения.
с = конст също е принцип.
винаги е било  ясно, и затова рядко се подчертава, че той  е валиден за инерциални системи - именно те са предмета на специалната относителност.
за тях очевидно няма място в околностите на черни дупки и пр. нехомогенни  полета, гравитационни, магнити и др.


тук е очевидна  аналогията с аристотелианските 'опровержения'.

историците спорят доколко Галилей е бил близо до 1я п-п: изглежда той е вярвал, че механичното движението се запазва в окръжност, докато нютоновият п-п предполага безкрайна права. според общата относителност изолирана от въздействие права и окръжност в централно симетрично поле са механически еквивалентни.

  • Registered: 25.09.2009г.
  • Posts: 151

Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

frege wrote:

първи  принцип на нютоновата механика: всяко тяло запазва неопределено дълго състоянието си на равномерно праволинейно движение. наблюдениата ни са крайни, така че строго погледнато той не се проверява; проверяват се крайни апроксимации, а когато се наблюдават отклонения, се измислят обяснения.
с = конст също е принцип.
винаги е било  ясно, и затова рядко се подчертава, че той  е валиден за инерциални системи - именно те са предмета на специалната относителност.
за тях очевидно няма място в околностите на черни дупки и пр. нехомогенни  полета, гравитационни, магнити и др.

Ако скоростта на светлината е variable в гравитационно поле, то тя е variable и в отсъствие на гравитационно поле. Обещах да докажа строго това в една дискусия на живо. Ето впрочем постановката на мисления опит, както и крайните резултати, без междинната математика:

A light source on top of a tower of height h emits light with frequency f, speed c (relative to the source) and wavelength L. A receiver on the ground receives light with frequency f', speed c' (relative to the receiver) and wavelength L'. According to Newton's emission theory of light:

f'=f(1+gh/c^2); c'=c(1+gh/c^2); L'=L

A rocket of length h accelerates with acceleration g. A light source at the front end emits light with frequency f, speed c (relative to the source) and wavelength L. A receiver at the back end receives light with frequency f', speed c' (relative to the receiver) and wavelength L'. At the moment of reception, the receiver has speed v relative to the light source at the moment of emission. According to Newton's emission theory of light:

f'=f(1+v/c); c'=c+v; L'=L

Einstein did not offer any reasonable alternative to the variation of the speed of light in a gravitational field predicted by the emission theory. Initially he was just using the equation c'=c(1+gh/c^2), then quite stupidly (or dishonestly) replaced it with c'=c(1+2gh/c^2):

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae13.cfm
"So, it is absolutely true that the speed of light is not constant in a gravitational field [which, by the equivalence principle, applies as well to accelerating (non-inertial) frames of reference]. If this were not so, there would be no bending of light by the gravitational field of stars....Indeed, this is exactly how Einstein did the calculation in: 'On the Influence of Gravitation on the Propagation of Light,' Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911. which predated the full formal development of general relativity by about four years. This paper is widely available in English. You can find a copy beginning on page 99 of the Dover book 'The Principle of Relativity.' You will find in section 3 of that paper, Einstein's derivation of the (variable) speed of light in a gravitational potential, eqn (3). The result is,
c' = c0 ( 1 + V / c^2 )
where V is the gravitational potential relative to the point where the speed of light c0 is measured."

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-01/6-01.htm
"In geometrical units we define c_0 = 1, so Einstein's 1911 formula can be written simply as c=1+phi. However, this formula for the speed of light (not to mention this whole approach to gravity) turned out to be incorrect, as Einstein realized during the years leading up to 1915 and the completion of the general theory. In fact, the general theory of relativity doesn't give any equation for the speed of light at a particular location, because the effect of gravity cannot be represented by a simple scalar field of c values. Instead, the "speed of light" at a each point depends on the direction of the light ray through that point, as well as on the choice of coordinate systems, so we can't generally talk about the value of c at a given point in a non-vanishing gravitational field. However, if we consider just radial light rays near a spherically symmetrical (and non- rotating) mass, and if we agree to use a specific set of coordinates, namely those in which the metric coefficients are independent of t, then we can read a formula analogous to Einstein's 1911 formula directly from the Schwarzschild metric. (...) In the Newtonian limit the classical gravitational potential at a distance r from mass m is phi=-m/r, so if we let c_r = dr/dt denote the radial speed of light in Schwarzschild coordinates, we have c_r =1+2phi, which corresponds to Einstein's 1911 equation, except that we have a factor of 2 instead of 1 on the potential term."

http://www.speed-light.info/speed_of_light_variable.htm
"Einstein wrote this paper in 1911 in German (download from: http://www.physik.uni-augsburg.de/annal … -908.pdf). It predated the full formal development of general relativity by about four years. You can find an English translation of this paper in the Dover book 'The Principle of Relativity' beginning on page 99; you will find in section 3 of that paper Einstein's derivation of the variable speed of light in a gravitational potential, eqn (3). The result is: c'=c0(1+phi/c^2) where phi is the gravitational potential relative to the point where the speed of light co is measured......You can find a more sophisticated derivation later by Einstein (1955) from the full theory of general relativity in the weak field approximation....For the 1955 results but not in coordinates see page 93, eqn (6.28): c(r)=[1+2phi(r)/c^2]c. Namely the 1955 approximation shows a variation in km/sec twice as much as first predicted in 1911."

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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

PValev wrote:

Einstein...was just using the equation c'=c(1+gh/c^2), then quite stupidly (or dishonestly) replaced it with c'=c(1+2gh/c^2)

which might be judged to be a stupid or dishonest statement when we read the full text quoted from the Mathpages:


In geometrical units we define c0  = 1, so Einstein's 1911 formula can be written simply as c = 1 + j. However, this formula for the speed of light (not to mention this whole approach to gravity) turned out to be incorrect, as Einstein realized during the years leading up to 1915 and the completion of the general theory. In the general theory of relativity the speed of light in a gravitational field cannot be represented by a simple scalar field of c values. Instead, the "speed of light" at a each point depends on the direction of the light ray through that point – and also on the choice of coordinate systems – so we can't generally talk about the value of c at a given point in a non-vanishing gravitational field. However, if we consider just radial  light rays near a spherically symmetrical (and non- rotating) mass, and if we agree to use a specific set of coordinates, namely those in which the metric coefficients are independent of t, then we can read a formula analogous to Einstein's 1911 formula directly from the Schwarzschild metric. The result differs from the 1911 formula by a factor of 2. To explain this in detail, we must first consider how the Schwarzschild metric is derived from the field equations of general relativity.

  • Registered: 25.09.2009г.
  • Posts: 151

Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

frege wrote:
PValev wrote:

Einstein...was just using the equation c'=c(1+gh/c^2), then quite stupidly (or dishonestly) replaced it with c'=c(1+2gh/c^2)

which might be judged to be a stupid or dishonest statement when we read the full text quoted from the Mathpages:


In geometrical units we define c0  = 1, so Einstein's 1911 formula can be written simply as c = 1 + j. However, this formula for the speed of light (not to mention this whole approach to gravity) turned out to be incorrect, as Einstein realized during the years leading up to 1915 and the completion of the general theory. In the general theory of relativity the speed of light in a gravitational field cannot be represented by a simple scalar field of c values. Instead, the "speed of light" at a each point depends on the direction of the light ray through that point – and also on the choice of coordinate systems – so we can't generally talk about the value of c at a given point in a non-vanishing gravitational field. However, if we consider just radial  light rays near a spherically symmetrical (and non- rotating) mass, and if we agree to use a specific set of coordinates, namely those in which the metric coefficients are independent of t, then we can read a formula analogous to Einstein's 1911 formula directly from the Schwarzschild metric. The result differs from the 1911 formula by a factor of 2. To explain this in detail, we must first consider how the Schwarzschild metric is derived from the field equations of general relativity.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~djmorin/book.html
Chapter 14: "This GR time-dilation effect was first measured at Harward by Pound and Rebka in 1960 (...) ...they were able to measure a frequency shift of gh/c^2..."

Is this "frequency shift of gh/c^2" consistent with c'=c(1+gh/c^2) or is it consistent with c'=c(1+2gh/c^2)?

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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

plz read the full txt and bear in mind that  h<<R so a first order approx reduces the doubled potential to gh.

  • Registered: 25.09.2009г.
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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

frege wrote:

plz read the full txt and bear in mind that  h<<R so a first order approx reduces the doubled potential to gh.

Добре че сте анонимен иначе този текст би могъл да ви орезили, дори в средите на Айнщайниана.

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Re: EFFECT WITHOUT CAUSE in EINSTEINIANA'S WONDERLAND

на път сме да превърнем този почитаем форум в кръжок по смятане.
доколкото разбирам нямаме разногласие относно резултата от РП експеримента, който устaновява резонанс при v=gh/c
теоретично до този резултат се достига като се впише числен коефициент 2 пред гравитационния потенциал.
вече цитираната статия от Уикипедия дава условието за резонанс (1-а)/(1+а).В=1; така а=(В-1)/(В+1). в разписания числител две единици се вадят и остава член от поненциалите с коефициент=2, а в знаменателя двете единици се събират и дават 2с^2 спрямо което адитивната част се пренебрегва. в знаменателя за потенциала се апроксимира с R^2 израза (R+h)R и се знае MG/R^2=g. така отгоре е gh, отдолу c^2, и тяхното отношение е а=v/c.


Pencho wrote:

Ако скоростта на светлината е variable в гравитационно поле, то тя е variable и в отсъствие на гравитационно поле

това обаче е по-сериозна пречка в диалога.